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Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:53 pm EDT

Who's the best program of all-time? Jeff Sagarin has your answer

By Eamonn Brennan

Unless you find him utterly wrong and completely off-base. Which you probably will.

See, ESPN put together its College Basketball Encyclopedia, which is basically what its title says -- an encyclopedia about college basketball. It has lots of words and pages and numbers, as any good encyclopedia should. If you buy it, it will likely sit on your coffee table and look pretty awesome, and you will occasionally flip to a random page and read it. It will be like "America: The Book," only about college basketball (and probably not a satire, though wouldn't that be interesting). And the very last page of that book, the one designed to get us all talking in advance (it's working), is a Jeff Sagarin-produced ranking of every program, all-time. You can check out the rankings list in PDF form here. It's a doozy.

The top five teams are pretty obvious inclusions: 1. Kentucky, 2. UCLA, 3. Kansas, 4. North Carolina, 5. Indiana. Straightforward, right? Then things begin to get a little hairy, which ESPN's Pat Forde explains:

Among the Sagarin outrages that prove Mark Twain's pejorative take on statistics: Northwestern is ranked No. 77 all-time. Providence is No. 78. [...] Illinois is No. 6 all-time. Duke is No. 7. [...] Seven Big Ten programs rank ahead of Michigan State, which checks in at No. 15. [...] Georgetown at No. 42. [...] Connecticut at No. 54. And then there is No. 1.

Forde argues that Kentucky should not be No. 1 because UCLA has more titles and because no computer ranking can take into the effect the blights of NCAA penalties and the way Adolph Rupp's racist self thrived in an all-white league for years. When racism started being less acceptable, Kentucky stopped being so perennially dominant. No formula factors that sort of thing in.

So, OK, Sagarin's rankings are sort of crazy, so much so that they seem to playfully enrage ESPN's best college basketball writer to the point of refuting them in a column that runs on ESPN.com. Which means ESPN is running something merely for the sake of argument and then immediately refuting it. Say it ain't so!

Related: College Basketball Media, From the Archives

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29 Comments

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  1. Shea L
    1. Posted by Shea L Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:31 pm EDT

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    Huh?
  2. Karl Marx
    2. Posted by Karl Marx Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:47 pm EDT

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    Can't argue w/ the computer, after all it handles the BCS.
    Shea, Big Game tonight.
  3. Patrick M
    3. Posted by Patrick M Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:55 pm EDT

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    Kentucky's winning percentage has stayed pretty much the same under all their coaches save Billy Clyde. If you can throw out all of Kentucky's accomplishments before the 70's, then you can throw out all the tainted titles under John Wooden too.
  4. roundballwiz
    4. Posted by roundballwiz Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:35 pm EDT

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    Amen Patrick! It's really a sorry state of affairs when people are that jealous of Kentucky. The one thing that I agree with is: Wooden is the best coach of all time. But everyone other than the UCLA faithful know that they got their championships by cheating, lying and outright fraud. Anyone can buy great teams. Just look at the NY Yankees.
  5. Karl Marx
    5. Posted by Karl Marx Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:31 pm EDT

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    I can't recall a hit on Duke's program. Coach K is clean w/ 3 rings as many as any coach in the MODERN era (1985, 64 teams).
    I say 1 pt regular season win, 2pts post season to level the field against teams that won titles w/ 3 or 4 wins (64,65 Bruins).
    Regular Season:
    1) Kentucky - 1988 wins
    2) UNC - 1984
    3) Kansas -1970
    4) Duke -1876
    5) Syracuse -1753
    Post Season:
    1) UNC- 101 (202pts)
    2) Kentucky-100 (200)
    3) UCLA- 99 (198)
    4) Duke-88 (176)
    5) Kansas-84 (168)
    Indiana- 60 (120)
    Cuse-50 (100)
    Revised:
    1. Kentucky 2188
    2. UNC 2186
    3. Kansas 2138
    4. Duke 1964
    5. UCLA 1870
    Cuse 1853
    Indiana 1755
  6. Bruce
    6. Posted by Bruce Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:08 pm EDT

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    Kentucky will always be...college basketball Heaven, not because of past or present players or coaches, nor the fans you see seated comfortablly in the lower sections of Rupp arena, but for the hundred thousands of fans that are three feet from the TV...screaming, cheering and at times crying. The tradition of UK basketball is something that can only be taught or caught. It literally becomes part of your every-day life. Some would say it's a like a religion. If that is BLUE, then I feel an awaking coming!
  7. Bruce
    7. Posted by Bruce Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:11 pm EDT

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    Kentucky will always be...college basketball Heaven, not because of past or present players or coaches, nor the fans you see seated comfortablly in the lower sections of Rupp arena, but for the hundred thousands of fans that are three feet from the TV...screaming, cheering and at times crying. The tradition of UK basketball is something that can only be taught or caught. It literally becomes part of your every-day life. Some would say it's a like a religion. If that is BLUE, then I feel an awakening coming!
  8. Dong
    8. Posted by Dong Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:43 pm EDT

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    Not to nitpick, but there are a couple hits on Duke - they just haven't tarnished K's image. One has to do with that Myron Piggie/Corey Maggette fiasco, where Duke very well should have had to erase its 99 Final Four due to Maggette's ineligibility. If Memphis got penalized for Rose, and Michigan for Webber, Duke should have received the same penalty for Maggette. I never quite understood how that never was an issue between the NCAA and Duke.
    Then there's the whole Pete Gaudet/1995 disaster where K won't take those losses on his record. This one is up for debate, but in the bigger picture of all-time wins and losses, it's always seemed wrong to me that K saddled Gaudet with all those losses.
  9. David B
    9. Posted by David B Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:34 pm EDT

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    Adolph Rupp was NOT a RACIST...jeez...look at his Freeport, IL high school team (african-american on the roster) in the 20's...the 20's...were he a racist, my guess is that kid would never have made the team, let alone play...keep in mind also, that Duke fielded an all-white team in 1966 and had it not lost to UK in the semis, do you think that Duke would have been saddled with the racist albatross around its' neck? or is it the fact that Rupp was a coach at a University that played its' games in the south, where teams forfeited their chance to play in the NCAA's because they (Georgia, Ole Miss, Et. al) refused to play teams with black players...Rupp always stated that he would actively recruit anyone to UK (regardless of color) if they could help his team win and they could handle themselves with the abuse they would undoubtedly take in southern gyms...Rupp consistently had teams come into Memorial Coliseum that had black players and had nary an incident of abuse...but because he didn't actively pursue Wes Unseld (who eventually wound up at Western Kentucky) out of Louisville, UK not only suffered on the court, but in recruiting as well...again, using the same tired "media line" without actually doing any research makes you look less intelligent than you probably are...tsk tsk Eammon, tsk tsk
  10. tarheelstanley
    10. Posted by tarheelstanley Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:39 am EDT

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    Kentucky is on probation every 5 years. Give me a break. You'll be on probation again soon. You guys suck. Look at your coach's background and you'll see your future.
  11. jim m
    11. Posted by jim m Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:04 am EDT

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    Truth is.... UCLA under Coach Wooden.... any basketball coach knows it... fans... maybe don't understand it..
    during wooden's time it was simple... nation vs ucla... hoping someone could stop them...
    computer is meaningless on this question... ucla program was the best... never be another
    like it... or another coach like wooden... ciao
  12. donovan675
    12. Posted by donovan675 Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:15 am EDT

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    David B
    Not sure what you're talking about. UNC is the only school to appear in the final game in every decade since the 1940s- 1946, 1957, 1968, 1977, 1981, 1982, 1993, 2005, 2009. If they appeared in the finals in each of those years then they obviously appeared in the final four in each decade as well.
  13. dh1hornsfan
    13. Posted by dh1hornsfan Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:23 pm EDT

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    What I think is funny about Forde is that he bashes Calipari even though, technically, there is no dirt on Cal and yet he doesn't bash Wooden even though everybody knew Sam Gilbert was feeding him players. Forde lives in Louisville and is in love with Ricky P (even wrote a book with him). However, I think he sees the writing on the wall and will do anything to bash UK because they are going to own UL for years to come.
  14. Nick
    14. Posted by Nick Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:29 pm EDT

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    Sagarin , what a joke - are you a kentucky grad? Kentucky has played in a patsy basketball conference forever as well as being on probation half the time! UNC should be number 1. They have played in what has consistently been the toughest basketball conference all these years! UK would be way down the list if they played in the ACC. Let's talk about where it really counts - head to head. UNC dominates UK 21 - 10 and have won 2 of the past 5 national championships. 1. UNC; 2. Kansas, 3. UCLA, 4. Duke, 5. Louisville.
  15. We threw gasoline on the fire
    15. Posted by We threw gasoline on the fire Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:49 pm EDT

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    buffdoggie, you are correct if the NCAA tournament is measured in ordinal years (1-10). However, most of the county lives in cardinal years (0-09). i.e. “Tonight I’m gonna party like is 1999,” and Y2K the start of the new millennia. If the latter is what the NCAA tournament is measured on then UK missed out this previous decade (2000-2009). That makes UNC the only program to make a final four every decade since the 1940’s.
  16. Karl Marx
    16. Posted by Karl Marx Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:11 pm EDT

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    You need help!!! If you disagree w/ someone fine, but to wish them dead and their family assaulted is INSANE. Take your Ritalin and 10 deep breaths. Have you ever even met Pat Forde?
  17. cledus
    17. Posted by cledus Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:11 pm EDT

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    #15, Nick, you're an idiot and I guess after this year you're going to be 21-11 against Kentucky. Enjoy that one record that you have cause you know that's all you got,and we have every other record over y'all. ACC vs. SEC blah blah blah. Nice rankings also, you've won 2 of the past 5 titles, well congratulations we've won 7 of the past 71. It's alright though baby blue, I forgive your ignorance.
  18. Nick
    18. Posted by Nick Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:38 pm EDT

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    UK fans are obnoxious and very defensive! Well, now that you have Coach Cash Cal running the program plan on going downhill (via probations, final four win givebacks, etc) because this guy is a slimeball! Even if you luck out and beat UNC this year (which I doubt) you still will be on probation next year! GO HEELS!!!!!!!
  19. roger v
    19. Posted by roger v Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:51 pm EDT

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    Man i am totally glad not ALL UK fans are total idiots! Just mainly the ones who post here.......Calamari is scum, and UK BOUGHT a recruiting class! Not a damn coach..........Lmao at some of u guys!
  20. cledus
    20. Posted by cledus Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:13 pm EDT

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    Luck ain't got anything to do with it Nick, just look at you're awesome record against UK, remember, you fit into the category of the hypocrite/ selective memory. Seriously, don't get mad cause the shoe is on the other foot now. Y'all know that the beat downs are coming very soon and you can't do anything about it. Quit bringing up how much we paid Cal, the Yankees have the highest payroll, but they don't win it every year so just chill that argument. And I will help you out with something though, say if we do win the title next year, bet the house on the Yankees winning the World Series.
  21. Bill
    21. Posted by Bill Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:38 pm EDT

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    The real mecca of college basketball is the place where college basketball began, which would be Lawrence, KS. Dr Naismith started the game somewhere in Massachusetts and brought it to Lawrence. Phog Allen took over the reign after him and went on to become one of the greatest coaches of all time. His understudies? Dean Smith, Adolph Rupp to name a few. UNC and UK can flaunt that they have more wins and championships, but keep in mind where it all began and keep in mind where your greatest coaches learned the game.
  22. bildthril
    22. Posted by bildthril Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:10 am EDT

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    A day without Roger V dissing UK or Coach Cal is like a day WITH sunshine!!!
  23. Shawn S
    23. Posted by Shawn S Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:33 am EDT

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    Why would I find it wrong? Is it so difficult to see past the tinted shades the media has for the likes of Duke and UNC? You look at UK, and you'd see they have the most all-time wins, second most NCAA titles, and have absolutely decimated the SEC (factoring in race issues is absolutely retarded, and actually borders racism in that of itself; stop trying to drudge up an argument that has been hashed and rehashed. Let it go) for a long, long time. On top of all that, this year UK will more than likely be the first program to eclipse the 2000 win total. So pardon me if I am not going to sit back and extoll the virtues of UNC, Duke, UCLA and so on over the likes of Kentucky. UK has earned the right to be there, and now it's not just rhetoric, but backed up by significant data.
  24. erikvannoy
    24. Posted by erikvannoy Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:36 pm EDT

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    Kentucky will always be the best program because of fan committment. What happened when Doughtery took over at UNC. I don't hear many fans wanting to relive those years. Every program has its ups and downs but you can't argue with consistency. Oh yeah to all of the people that say UK has been on probation so much, it has been since the late 80's early 90's. Still we have won championships since and will continue to cut down nets.
  25. thomas
    25. Posted by thomas Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:57 pm EDT

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    there is no way that memphis has the 61st greatest program in college basketball history.

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